Are the many who will fall away during the great tribulation of Mt. 24 believers that walk away from the faith?
Here’s the verse – Matthew 24:10: “And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.”
I think the answer clearly lies in the second half of the verse. Those who fall away will also deliver up one another and hate one another.
What characterizes a child of God?
1 John 3:14-16: “We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
1 John 4:7,8: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”
John goes on to say that we love because He first loved us.
In verse 39 Paul says no created thing (that would include ourselves) shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul told the Philippians that "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
When does the day of Christ Jesus occur? Immediately after the tribulation.
His Beloved, it is my position that those who fall away were never His in the first place.
Thanks to you all for your faithful visits.
19 comments:
Kathy,
Based upon what you wrote, I think you’ve misunderstand the position that I and other Christians like me take on this. I’ve fellowshipped in denominations on both sides of this issue. I’ll characterize the doctrinal position as best I can of those who believe that a saved person can actually fall away from Christ and thus lose their salvation.
You wrote:
Here’s the verse – Matthew 24:10“And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.”
I think the answer clearly lies in the second half of the verse. Those who fall away will also deliver up one another and hate one another.
You then offer numerous scriptures to answer the question “What characterizes a child of God?” Your argument appears to rest on the assumption that someone like me is somehow assuming that first comes the “delivering up and hating of one another” and then comes the disconnect from Christ. That is not what I believe Matthew 24:10 teaches. In fact, the order is very clear. First these individuals fall away (cease abiding in the Vine), then they deliver up one another and hate one another.
So, even though we are on different sides of the doctrinal fence on this issue, I think we both agree that those who deliver up one another and hate one another are not children of God. The question remains. Were they ever children of God? I believe the strong implication is that they were part of the true church (the Body of Christ). If they were never children of God, who or what did they fall away from?
I just made my first two posts on my blog. One of them has additional thoughts on this subject. Please take a look if you have a chance.
I was one who fell away for many years, and even spent time in prison for drug related offenses.
However, I am back. I have the roots that my parents taught me about Jesus/God and it's only been in my 30's that I have started to understand what the relationship with Jesus really means.
Does it mean that if I had died during my falling away, I would have gone to hell? No. Even though I didn't have time for God & was living a very sinful life, I was still God's. I would have been faultless before God. We all go thru trials which will bring us closer to God. If life were easy, we would not need him.
I truly believe that all I can do is "train my child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will return to it". Many of my friends are dealing with pregnant teens, suicide, drugs/alcohol, all their kids are from very strong, Christian homes and almost all these kids went to a fabulous private Christian school. Have they fallen away? Yes, for now. Will they go to hell? No.
I truly believe what is being referred to is an actual denouncing of God. You can say the words a billion times but you must truly believe it in your soul. If you look at how people are mesmerized by Obama, you can understand how people will give follow the crowds of the anti-christ one day, and turn in other believers to save themselves. It may be that the church will be removed and those left behind will not have much guidance on God's will, although they do have the Bible (which will most likely be banned), it can be difficult to completely understand to a new believer.
I struggle with rebellion with my spirit. Right now it's not allowing me to be submissive to God, although I pray, believe and read the Bible almost every day. Does it mean that whatever is holding me back from being 100% submissive to God's Will would make God turn his back on me? No, he knows my heart and he knows & understands my struggle.
For that I say "AMEN"!
Jim,
I see those who fall away as never having been “connected” with Christ in the first place. That is why they fall away. According to Matthew 24:9 the sequence goes like this, a delivering up of tribulation or persecution against believers (“you”), a killing of believers (“you”), and hatred of believers (“you”) on account of Jesus name. Verse ten says that at that time of tribulation, killing, and hating many will fall away. It just makes the most sense to me that these are the tares in Mt. 13, the look-alikes who are in the church when the great tribulation begins against God’s elect. They bought into religion for awhile but never entered into a relationship with Christ when upon hearing the word of truth the Holy Spirit initiates faith and they are then made alive in Christ. They will depart from saying they are followers of Christ when this unprecedented affliction begins against His followers. They are also the individuals with hearts of rocky soil. When affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. (Mt. 13:20,21) The Lord doesn't tell us how long this can take. I would venture to say that when the great tribulation begins there will be multitudes upon multitudes of look-alikes who have been in the church for decades. Do you believe Christ would say that those with hearts of rocky soil were ever saved at one time? I don’t. How can these individuals ever have been saved, ever have been children of God, and a part of the true Church? It just doesn’t compute with me when you have passages such as Romans 8:29-39, John 10:27-29, 1 Peter 1:3-7. I don’t see falling away from Christ being defined as losing your salvation.
Anonymous,
A favorite verse of mine is 2 Peter 1:3. God has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
Peter then goes on in the passage to list seven virtues or qualities that we are to add to our God given faith. (2 Peter 1:5-7)
Moral excellence
Knowledge
Self-control
Perseverance
Godliness
Brotherly kindness
Love
Peter instructs we are to add these qualities applying all diligence, that is, making maximum effort!
I love this definition of faith that Kristen sent to me several months ago. “Faith is believing the Word of God and acting on it, no matter how I feel, because God promises a good result.”
Do you know what the good result is if these seven virtues or qualities are ours and are increasing?
They give us assurance of our salvation in the present and a rich reward in heaven! (2 Peter 1:8-11)
Can we have assurance of our
salvation if these qualities are not ours and are not increasing? I think the answer is no.
Does growing up in a Christian home and going to Christian schools guarantee our salvation? No.
Some things to think about…
Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Anonymous, in regards to your post on May 12 at 5:57 AM:
My brother has a very similar testimony. The interesting thing about my brother's story is that it was a realization that both his physical life and his eternal destiny were in jeopardy that caused Him to come back to the Lord and start living a life of faith and obedience.
Perhaps it was the mercy of God that allowed you to come back to Him. Maybe had you died in your state of rebellion, you would have been lost for eternity. I don't know where exactly that line is but I do know there are numerous passages in Scripture that talk about people falling away from the faith.
You can't take these passages at face value and conclude that a person is eternally secure simply because they have at one time placed their faith in Christ. You have to read additional things into the passages that is not warranted by either the text or the context.
There are several important questions that I think your and Kathy's position raise:
Q1: How do we know who is a believer and who is not? The Lord gives us clear instructions throughout the Bible about how we are to interact with other believers as well as how we are to interact with the world. If we don’t know who is who, then how can we follow His instructions?
Q2: Are you suggesting a person can be living like the devil and yet still be “saved” and a person can be living like a saint (yield good spiritual fruit) and yet not be born again? How can this position be reconciled with John 15:1-6?
Q3: Of course there are people who will never know Christ. But that doesn’t preclude the possibility that there are others who will know Christ and then fall away from Him. Who or what does one fall away from if not Christ or the faith?
I don’t think that a believer who struggles with sin in his or her life has fallen away. I believe it is the person who knows Christ, and then fails to heed the many warnings in Scripture about falling away, and eventually through willful disobedience and deception, ends up abandoning the faith.
John 15:1-6
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
The passage in 2 Peter appears to me to suggest that people can be cleansed from past sins (saved) and then fail to make their calling and election sure and fall. If we heed this warning and don’t fall, we “will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Clearly this Scripture is not an empty warning. A consequence for not being obedient to Christ after having been cleansed from past sins.
2 Peter 1:5-11
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I believe "once saved, always saved". We are all sinners, and sin is sin in God's eyes. Murder = lust = stealing = sin. God doesn't care what sin it is because it's all the same to him.
Do you believe that drug addicts living in active addiction, who accepted Jesus as a young child, do not get into heaven?
It is thru Grace we are saved - how amazing & simple! I sin every single day, and I will still stand before God one day, white as snow. I believe it all falls down to faith. Even in my darkest hours, I had faith. I believed in God. I was a slave to drugs though, and that became my one & only mission - to get more. Does it mean had I died, I would have gone to hell? NO! Does it mean a person on their deathbed who asks Jesus in their hearts goes to hell? NO! Salvation is a gift, the easiest thing in the world to have and all we have to do is have faith. It's so simple, it's hard!!! There is nothing I can physically do that will get me in heaven. I believe those that fall away denounce God. In a time of much confusion and tribulation, many will fall away because of fear. Fear of starvation, freezing, etc.... I do not think anyone can fully understand HOW people will fall away because our world will have never seen such horrible, terrible things.
I do believe I will be held "more" accountable for my life than other believers because of my upbringing. Same for a Pastor who preaches God's word and lives in sin.
To be honest, I am currently "Stuck" as to what I can do with my story & my life as I cannot get a job with my background, and have become a bit of a "hermit" in my home after staying home for so many years. It's very isolating. Is this God's plan for my life, to stay home? NO! Do I know what it is? No, but I do pray that He makes my path clear and opens doors only HE can open. And I have faith He will in his time.
Anonymous,
I just want to encourage you to continue abiding in Him!
Jim,
God knows who are His elect.
Those who are in the church but are walking like unbelievers, there is clear instruction on how to deal and interact with them. Those who are in the church and are not saved but are the tares, the look-alikes, as I said, God knows who they are and He will ultimately deal with them.
As far as John 15:1-6. I don’t see this as a salvation passage. I call this a believer’s passage. This passage is about believers, or branches coming off on One Vine.
V.1: “I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” Jesus is the vine and His Father is the Vinedresser/Master Gardener. The vine is the life source of the branches. The source of the believer’s life is Jesus.
Verse 2: “Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit…” These are believers who are not producing.
In Him we’ve been made alive. He is our nutrient source that will enable us to grow and produce fruit.
V.3: “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.” Again, these are believers. This verse gives indication of how as believers we are to produce fruit – we need the Word of God in us.
V.4: “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me.”
Before I go on, Jesus already told the disciples in John 10:27-29 that no one (including themselves) shall snatch them out of His hand nor the Father’s hand.
Ceasing to abide therefore is not losing your salvation.
According to verse 4 we have this circular relationship – His Spirit dwelling in us and us dwelling in the Word.
Verse 5: “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
Christ promises that when believers live, walk, dwell in Him, we will bear fruit. Live in the Word and watch the fruit grow!
Hang tight, we are going to get to what I believe Jesus meant when in v. 2 He said every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away. He said every branch that bears fruit, He prunes. Even when we bear fruit there is a pruning involved. Why? So that bearing fruit can continue. And yes, pruning tends to hurt but God is molding and shaping us into the image of His Son.
V. 8 tells us another benefit to abiding in the vine – our ability to glorify the Vinedresser. “By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.” We belong to Him, Jesus wants the world see it. Fruit that points to self is bad fruit.
V.9: Jesus calls us to abide in His love. Abiding in His love is a true joy of the believer – even in the pruning times we can know His love. How do we abide in His love? If we keep His commandments.
(vv.10,11) Jesus was our example in His obedience to the Father. He abides in the Father’s love. If we keep His commandments, we will abide in His love.
Then, He tells us to love another. (v. 12)
Watch this, if we love another, we are obeying, if we obey, we are abiding, if we abide, we will bear fruit, if we bear fruit, we will bring glory to the Father. So, in sharing the love of Christ we are glorifying God!
What happens to the branch, or believer, who is not bearing fruit? (v.2). It is taken away. In v. 6 the branch that does not abide is thrown away. It dries up and is ultimately burned.
Jesus never loses what the Father gives Him so this cannot be talking about a believer losing their salvation and being cast into hell.
Remember 2 Cor. 5:9-10 where we learn that everybody will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to be recompensed for their deeds? This is not a judgment for salvation because our works can’t save us. Deeds are judged at a different seat as to whether the things we did in life were bad or good.
Then, in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 Paul warns that ultimately each person’s work will be tested or judged for its quality. Some will survive the fire, the gold, silver, precious stones, others will be burned, the wood, hay, stubble. The works that burn up reveal a poor quality of work for the kingdom.
Since I believe that Scripture teaches you cannot lose your salvation, this is a warning given to make sure we are fruit producers for the glory of God.
So what happens to a chosen child of God who is not abiding in Christ. He’s not in His Word or walking in the Spirit, not producing fruit? He’s cut from the vine, taken away. This seems to be different than pruning. This branch is of no use to the Gardener. Perhaps this means an early end to the branches existence. 1 Cor. 11:23-34 appears to indicate where disobedience abounds a judgment can bring early death.
I believe it also could mean a drastic amputation in a believer’s life – to get the believer’s attention. Growth can start over but there is trauma. Jonah comes to mind.
Jesus warning (to believers!) is harsh. Don’t be the non-producing branch. Don’t test the Lord. Abide in His love, obey His commands, bear fruit, survive the pruning and glorify the Gardener. A much better choice!!
You know how Jesus ends this passage? He reminds believers that we didn’t choose Him but that He chose us to go and bear fruit.
We have a calling and we are accountable to answer the call!
The Parable of the Lost Son
Luke 15:11-32
I believe this sums it up quite simply;
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.
13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]'
22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'
28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'
31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
Kathy, thanks for that nice message you left me on my blog. And thanks for your recent comments at the cave - very apropos.
Anonymous,
"Do you believe that drug addicts living in active addiction, who accepted Jesus as a young child, do not get into heaven? "
Correct.
Otherwise what is the motivation of denying yourself and walking in line with God's will?
Our spiritual motivations are always fighting against our material fleshly desires.
Like Kathy quotes:"He who endures to the end will be saved." That does not give you a free pass to do whatever your heart desires.
It means to "endure". That takes effort, fighting, and clawing your way to stay on the straight and narrow path. Otherwise you'll end up on the wide highway to hell.
When we stray off course or Heavenly Father makes adjustments and corrections on our behalf to keep us in line.
With your philosphy I might as well just do whatever I want to do because I know "I'm saved." That makes no sense what-so-ever.
Lisa
Late Night Lisa-
finally back online after some wicked weather and cleanup.
To answer your question, I believe that God knows our hearts. As John 3:16 says; For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I have always believed in God. During my drug filled days, during my childhood, during my adult years. Salvation is e-a-s-y. It means recognizing that I am a sinner and asking God to come into my heart, surrendering to Him. It doesn't mean I will not suffer.
I read the Bible often, more now than ever before. I finally am understanding, like big blinders have been removed from my eyes. My children and I talk about God and making wise choices. We pray & go to church. I am constantly seeking more, trying to understand His will. I am fumbling, being very careful as to what I read online. I currently have some anxiety issues which is leaving me housebound most of the time. I still sin every day, but am surrounded by Christian people & friends/family, and do not have the exposure to tell others about Jesus. I have a very private life, but attend church and am always seeking. I struggle with self. I want to give and want to help the poor or homeless. But I'm scared and my "self" won't let me be as Jesus said we should be. I also have young children at home and in this chapter of my life, it is not safe to bring them into certain environments and I can't afford daycare or a babysitter so someone can watch them. Does this mean I won't go to heaven? I don't believe so. God sees & knows my heart & my intentions. He knows I turn to him & seek him and want to know him more and do his will in my life. He won't turn his back on me, just as I wouldn't turn my back on my children.
I know the Bible mentions specific "levels" of heaven. I would love for Overcomer to do a post on this. The "new" believers (such as those that accept on their deathbed) will not be on the same level of Heaven as those who have served God faithfully.
Hi Anonymous,
Good to see you back. Since this blog is about end times I probably would not post on heaven but I will tell you here what I understand Scripture to teach. I don't see different levels of heaven being taught in Scripture. That is - there will be one level for the "super-committed Christians" and another, lesser level for the "not- so-committed Christians". What Scripture does teach is that there will be a time of rewarding in heaven. Jesus said regarding rewards, "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done." (Revelation 22:12).
Only those works that survive God’s refining fire have eternal value and will be worthy of reward. Those valuable works are referred to as “gold, silver and precious stones” (1 Corinthians 3:12). Those works that will not be rewarded are called “wood, hay, and stubble” in the same passage. They do not represent evil deeds, but shallow activities with no eternal value. The works which endure and are not burned up were accomplished in the Lord's power and for His glory.
To be sure, no matter how much of our works are found as worthless, no believer will forfeit salvation.
I hold to the position that a person who is in ongoing sin cannot have assurance of their salvation.
We are instructed to examine ourselves to see whether or not we are in the faith. (2 Cor. 13:5) A good place to start is by reading 1 John.
Thanks for dropping by...Kathy ps...I'll get a message to Lisa that you were here.
Anonymnous,
You may have seen this that Kristen wrote in another section of comments. I'm going to post it here for you.
"Sometimes when we say "once saved, always saved" that gives the impression that a walk down the aisle at church as a six year old means I have fire insurance, no matter how I live. God's word says, however, by their fruit you will know them. God knows who His children are - He calls them, according to John 6:44 He actually drags us (same word as draw), but for us to have confidence in our relationship with Him, we have to examine our fruit. John MacArthur wrote a great book on this in the eighties called the Gospel According to Jesus, which stirred the pot, so to say. It's all about Lordship - you can recognize Jesus is God but without making Him Lord of your life, there is no assurance of eternity with Him."
Anonymous,
May I suggest going to my blog & watching the "Lukewarm & loving it" video by Pastor Francis Chan.
It discusses this topic rather well.
Anonymous,
Yes, he does know our hearts and sounds like your honestly seeking him and trying to center your life in His will.
Ephesians is a short book and worth the read as is deals with the Church, the Body of Christ, Salvation through grace, and doctrinal truths of the Bible.
I really like the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. Matthew 20
Read it-it's good. The parable is about a man who owned a vineyard and hired workers at different hours of the day-right up to the last hour. (Could be perhaps like a person saved on their death bed)
At the end of the day he paid them all the same amount, which bothered those who worked longer hours. The owner's response was that he kept his word to them, and he could provide whatever he wanted to with the other employees.
In God's kingdom there are people who are entrusted with huge opportunities to serve the Lord for extended periods of time. Others have less opportunities and will serve less time. The point is that we are to remain faithful no matter how long our calling is.
We can't compare what we are doing or what is given with what is entrusted to others. We remain faithful in our situation and God is always fair and just.
There is some reference to levels of heaven in the Bible but from what I've come to understand is that one is the heavens (atmosphere) above the earth. Another level is outerspace. And the 3rd heaven is somewhere out there where God resides.
But in the heaven where God resides there are not levels.
The rewards which the Bible speaks of are "crowns."
Read 2 Timothy 4:8 speaks of the "crown of righteousness."
Revelation 3:20 "Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."
Revelation 4:10 ....."and cast their crowns before the throne...
James 2:12 .."the crown of life..
Here is a good article written on that very subject:
Rewards in Heaven Crowns
Anyway, hope that helps.
Lisa
So which is it? “No believer will forfeit salvation”, or “I hold to the position that a person who is in ongoing sin cannot have assurances of their salvation.”? Plus, we have assurances that nothing can take us from God’s hand (believer’s that is). So does that mean that the Bible isn’t true? I don’t think so….but maybe you don’t believe God’s word is infallible.
Hi Anonymous,
Overcomer here. I'm on a different computer which won't let me sign in with my normal ID.
So which is it you ask? Both!
God does the choosing and saving, right? No one can be plucked from the Father's hand, right? Therefore, no believer will forfeit salvation.
What can be forfeited by partaking in ongoing sin?
Joy.
Our testimony.
Assurance of our salvation.
Not having salvation and not having assurance and confidence in your salvation are two different things.
God knows who His children are. But not everyone who thinks they know God are His children. Mt. 7:20,21: "So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven."
You say you are scared and your "self" won't let be as Jesus said you should be.
Faith is believing the Word of God and acting on it, no matter how you feel, because God promises a good result.
I would like to encourage you to read Hebrews 11 and then take that faith definition and write down how each of the people mentioned in that chapter stepped out in faith and the good result that God gave them.
2 Peter 1:3: "Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence."
Keep your eyes on His glory and excellence, step out and faith, and see God work in your life.
I'm praying for you...Kathy
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/eternal-security/osas-the-whole-story
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