Kristen, daughter of Robert VanKampen (and my prewrath email friend), has written an interactive, four lesson study guide that walks you through the Scriptures which support the prewrath position on the timing of the rapture of the Church. It is free and up-loadable to your computer. Click here to go to the home page of her website and then click on "Free Prewrath Study".
I've been meeting with a friend from my church once a week and we've been going through each lesson together. We just completed lesson three. After lesson two she was convinced that the prewrath position is the most biblically sound of all the positions on the timing of the rapture.
Kristen is a gifted writer. I've read her end times novel "The Appearing" and various other manuscripts she's sent my way. In her study guide the prewrath position is plainly and simply laid out, supported clearly and easily by God's Word. Nothing is forced. My prayer is that if you take the time to go through it, the truth of God's Word on this matter will become crystal clear to you just as it has for me and is doing in the hearts and minds of so many others as well.
Giving to the Poor
8 months ago
22 comments:
Hi Kathy,
I just dowloaded Kristen's study. Looks really good. Thank you for mentioning it.
Jim G.
You are going to love it Jim! I think by the time you are finished looking at the Scriptures you will be more than saying prewrath makes the most sense. You will see it as the truth regarding Christ's return! That's my prayer. Let me know, ok?
Just a question from your viewpoint.
What are your plans during the Tribulation? Since you'll be here I'm sure all the Pre-Tribs will flock to you for advice.(You know I don't plan to be-but I'm just going along with the thought process)
I've been seeing further into that time period in regards to deceptions that may come upon people at that time.
The Bible says quite a few people are going to die-so If I'm not nuked-what's the plan?
You must think about "planning" for this time period more than I have.
Lisa
Hi Lisa,
The greatest preparation I am making and anyone else can make is spiritual preparation.
Paul tells the Thessalonians that God will send a strong delusion to those who do did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. If the church is not supposed to be here during this time of great deception, why is Paul giving all this instruction regarding it? Why doesn’t he say, “You guys won’t be here so don’t worry but for those left behind the man of lawlessness is going to work lying wonders according to the working of Satan against those who do not love the truth so as to be saved.” Paul tells the Thessalonians that the day when the Lord comes and gathers together believers, it will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, when the son of destruction will set himself up as God in the temple. (2 Th. 2:1-4.)
Paul also says he and his companions are bound to give thanks to God because God had chosen the Thessalonians from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and BELIEF IN THE TRUTH, to which He called them. They were called and Paul recognized this calling because of their belief in the truth and love for it.
Do we love the truth? Are we hiding it in our hearts? Are we letting it dwell richly in us? (Are we students of it and dividing it rightly?)
Paul tells us in Ephesians to put on the full armor of God so we may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. His list of armor begins with Truth and ends with the sword of the Spirit, God's Word.
Peter tells us we need to be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing us. We can have assurance of our salvation if we see the seven qualities he lists in 2 Peter 1:5-7 abounding and increasing. If we claim to have embraced the gospel but don’t care about giving all diligence to adding to our faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love, we cannot have assurance of our salvation.
It is very important to know what Christ taught in Mt. 24. He’s told us in advance what to look for before He returns. If you read carefully He gives instruction to stay put when false Christs will arise and try to draw believers out of hiding by saying Christ is here or there. We are to look for Him to return in the sky after all natural the lights go out signaling the end of the age.
I believe we are seeing the birth pangs (Mt. 24:8) – false Christs, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, famine in various parts of the world, and these will only intensify as the time draws closer to when the man of lawlessness will be revealed and then he begins his unprecedented persecution against the elect, the true church.
As far as physical preparations I don’t see the need to be doing anything until we see Israel sign a covenant with a prince for seven years. Then we know we’ll have 3 ½ years before this man of intrigue is revealed and begins his reign of terror.
I’m not naïve in thinking that here in America we will be spared from the birth pangs or Antichrist’s persecution. Revelation 13:7 tells us that he is given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. It certainly makes sense and I believe it is wise to be prepared for earthquakes and that type of thing right now. I have a physical condition that requires prescription medication. Unless you take the mark you will not be able to buy and sell. I know that for me the reality of making it to the end of the age probably won’t happen. I’m ok with that. I’m not worried or fretting about it. God is in control.
Are we that generation that will begin to see these things come to pass? I don’t know. But things could fall into place very rapidly.
Thanks for the visit and the question Lisa.
His grace and peace to you,
Kathy
Thanks for you explaination.
The logic in the scripture posted does not convince me in any way of thinking pre-wrath is more accurate. Everything you post refers to the 2nd coming and Day of our Lord.
Aside from 2Thes 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; (yes we know that to be true even now) for That Day (2nd Coming-Day of the Lord) will not come unless that the falling away (also means departure-as can refer to meeting the Lord in the air) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed. (The Bridegroom has left-now the anti-christ will reveal himself)
Go onto verse 6
"And now you know what is restraining (The Church is restraining the evil)that he may be revealed in his due time. For the mystery (hidden truth) of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit in Church) who now restrains will do so until He (Holy Spirit in Church) is taken out of the way. (Caught upto heaven.)
Then Mat 24 kicks in when the Anti-Christ comes on the scene.
So what is the "mystery" we will be all changed in a twinkling of an eye passage mean?
1 Thess 4 :13-18
The fameous "Catching Away" verse-Christ stays up in the heavens and the Saints "go up" to meet the Lord in the Air.
In Revelation you have Christ coming down to earth -sheep & goat judgments in Matt 24 He comes to earth-sheep & goat judgments. The righteous inherit the earth. They are not taken up to heaven. "They will inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
What would this foundation be? The account in Genesis. The origional plan for mankind.The foundation which the entire Bible rests upon. The garden of Eden. Now the 1000 yr reign of Christ begins.
To really help me understand where your coming from you would have to explain in your own views what all the above means.
Otherwise I just don't get it.
Thank you,
Lisa
"Are we that generation that will begin to see these things come to pass? I don’t know. But things could fall into place very rapidly."
did you miss this?
Matthew 24:32
Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 “Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Be Ready for His Coming
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 “But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 “For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens.
On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matt. 24:29-30 says it will happen immediately after the Great Tribulation and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.
The Lord seems to keep Israel and the Church separate, never dealing with both at the same time (Acts 15: 13-18) If the primary purpose of Daniel's 70th week is to finish fulfilling the six promises to Israel in Daniel 9:24, then the Church has to disappear.
The Church was purified at the cross at which time all the punishment due us was born by the Lord Himself. From that time forward the Church is considered by God to be as righteous as He is (2 Cor 5:17 & 21) The idea that the Church needs to undergo some discipline to become worthy to dwell with God is unscriptural and denies the Lord's completed work on the cross.
The stated purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold, to purify Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations. (Jeremiah 30:1-11) The Church isn't destined for either of these outcomes.
Lisa (and hi hi coca cola, thanks for dropping in):
Sorry it’s taken me awhile to get back to you both. I was under the gun to get some images edited for a waiting customer.
Remember two of the important rules of hermeneutics, that is, how to interpret scripture?
1) We need to make sure we understand the context of the passage. We need to consider the verses before and the verses after the verses we are studying.
2) We can also look at other passages to help us interpret scripture. Let scripture interpret scripture. Sometimes when a passage is unclear we can look at other passages to gain clarity.
As we compare scripture with scripture, we see that the falling away in 2 Th. 2 is in truth, “the apostasy”. It is also mentioned in Matthew 24:10, as in many will fall away and betray one another. Both Mt. 24 and 2 Th. 2 are referring to the time of AC’s reign. Because of that I do not see the terms “apostasy” or “falling away” as a rapture reference. See how it works when you compare scripture with scripture?
As far as the classic rapture passage, 1 Th. 4:3-18, chapter five is an extension of chapter 4. (Remember that rule of looking at the surrounding verses?) Paul describes the “catching away” for those who are alive and remain (which can also be translated “survive”) and then he says, as to the timing of this, you know the Day of the Lord comes like a thief but not to you (1 Th. 5:4). So he puts the catching away event and the Day of the Lord in the same context of each other. So, I Thessalonians is definitely talking about being gathered to the Lord (the rapture) and the arrival of the Day of the Lord.
Back to Mt. 24 - Christ gives a warning to His disciples who are believers correct? All His teaching was applicable and relevant to His audience. Why would Christ give a warning to believers if they are going to be raptured prior to the events He begins to lay out that will occur before His coming and the gathering of the elect? If they aren’t going to be there, instead of a warning shouldn’t He have said, “Well, you don’t need to worry because you won’t be here, you will be raptured before all the trouble begins.” No, He immediately starts out with a warning just after they ask the sign of His coming and the end of the age. It was believing men who sincerely wanted to know what to look for. He then takes the disciples through the events that will occur up to the end of the age and His coming. If Mt. 24 is not the rapture and He comes sometime before the events in Mt. 24 to gather the church do we call that other coming His 1 ½ coming? (I’m using logic here, along with a little humor…)
Now Coca Cola, can I call you Mr. Coke? It’s a little easier…You say there is going to be a secret rapture. I think we all agree that 1 Th. 4 is the classic rapture passage. We’ve already seen that 1 Th. 5 is an extension of 1 Th. 4 in what Paul was teaching the Thessalonians. Paul mentions the rapture in 1 Th. 4 and then in 1 Th. 5 Paul tells them they are not in darkness that the Day of the Lord is going to overtake them like a thief. He just tied the rapture and the Day of the Lord together. So, I Thessalonians clearly says that believers will not be surprised at His return because they know the signs. Believers will be seeing unbelievers enjoying peace and safety. When will unbelievers be enjoying peace and safety? During the reign of AC because they have aligned with him. II Thessalonians clearly gives what to look for. The revealing of the man of lawlessness. So neither of those books can be describing a “secret rapture.” Matthew 24 and the corresponding gospel accounts again tell specifically what to look for, the abomination of desolation and then the subsequent great tribulation. Jesus adds in verse 36 the fact that only the Father knows the timing yet there is still the call to be prepared and watching. Therefore, Matthew 24 (Jesus’ specific teaching on His return) does not describe a “secret rapture.”
Mr. Coke, I would urge you to read 1 Th. 4 and 5 and 2 Th. 2. You will see that believers are not in the dark.
And lastly, you say the stated purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold, to purify Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations - God’s wrath is for that, not the Great Tribulation. It is a “great” time of trouble because believers and Jews alike are being slaughtered. God doesn’t cut short His Wrath but He does cut short the Great Tribulation of His children.
Thanks you two.
Kathy
Hi Kathy,
I've haven't had a chance to go through Kristen's study yet. I really appreciate your thoughtful insights both here and at the cave.
You've said this before and you said it again:
"Remember two of the important rules of hermeneutics, that is, how to interpret scripture?
1) We need to make sure we understand the context of the passage. We need to consider the verses before and the verses after the verses we are studying.
2) We can also look at other passages to help us interpret scripture. Let scripture interpret scripture. Sometimes when a passage is unclear we can look at other passages to gain clarity. "
I absolutely agree with that. As you, I too think that when one follows these principles, it leads to a pre-wrath position.
Having said that, I honestly can't understand how a person can hold to those principles and arrive at a "once saved, always saved" position. I apologize if that isn't a good term but I'm not sure what to call it. Anyway, did you ever have a chance to look at the questions I posed on my blog. I don't necessarily expect you to answer them but was hoping you had a chance to consider them.
I work full time, have a wife, and a 20 month old son so I really don't have too much free time to post new entries on my blog or comment here or at the cave. I definitely enjoy reading what others post.
Anyway, I'm begging you. If there is anyway for you to order or borrow the book "Life in the Son" by Robert Shank, please do. Seeing how much you love God's Word, I really do think you would appreciate this study. It is absolutely full of Scripture.
In my opinion, Shank defends (from Scripture) the idea that we must abide in Christ and that true Christians can fall away from Christ and be lost as well as you and Kristen defend the pre-wrath position.
IMO, both are nearly irrefuteable doctrinal positions. Since the Bible warns of a great apostacy in the end times, I really think it is important to understand what the Lord says about this as we get closer to his coming.
In Christ,
Jim
Hi Jim,
I did read your blog.
As you probably know, I believe the only valid way to discover what the writers of Scripture intended to communicate is to take it at face value.
Paul tells the Philippians that he was very confident that God who began a good work in them will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Taking that at face value, along with Jesus saying in John that no one shall snatch His sheep out of His hand and then He repeats it again by saying no one will snatch His sheep out of His Father’s hand, we are protected from losing our salvation, falling away from it, walking away from it, or God even changing His mind regarding it.
The Holy Spirit initiates our faith for each of us upon our hearing the gospel.
A bit of my testimony for you - The Holy Spirit initiated my faith at a Good News Club in my neighborhood when I was nine. I grew up in church, since birth, hearing the gospel dozens of times previously but I moved from the realm of deadness to spiritual life one fall day because the Lord saw to it that I be in the house of a woman who loved children and loved sharing the gospel with them. From that point on I loved memorizing Scripture. I then loved hearing my mother teach her Sunday School lessons and VBS lessons and Pioneer Girl talks (that was the Christian version of Girl Scouts). As I began to let the word of Christ dwell in me my moral compass grew. My twin sister was not saved until she was thirteen. She would do and say things that broke my heart, and would try to get me to do them too. I wouldn’t do them and she would make fun of me. The Lord removed the blindness from her eyes when we were in Jr. Hi. She is my dearest friend now and we love encouraging each other in the Word.
One of the most powerful passages regarding God’s work on our behalf and our security in Christ is in Romans 8. Here it is starting in verse 29:
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? (NO ONE!)
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect: God is the one who justifies;
Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Just as it is written, “FOR THY SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
(And there is a great slaughtering of His sheep coming. Those who end up being slaughtered prove they were His elect, chosen from before the foundation of the world. Those who apostasize and fall away prove they were only the look-alikes. Remember, Jesus said He loses none of His sheep! I take that at face value. )
“But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any created thing (that would include ourselves!) SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Yes, we must abide in Him, and if we don’t, we won’t lose our salvation. That would make our salvation conditional, which then makes it a salvation of our works.
Not abiding in Him removes the joy of being in Him, can ruin our testimony, and often sets us up for a really good spanking!
Bless you and your little family Jim and thank you for your faithful visits.
A couple more thoughts Jim...
1) We need to make sure we understand the context of the passage. We need to consider the verses before and the verses after the verses we are studying.
2) We can also look at other passages to help us interpret scripture. Let scripture interpret scripture. Sometimes when a passage is unclear we can look at other passages to gain clarity.
It is because of the two rules above that Kristen and I view the Hebrews 6 passage as we do.
Rule 2: From John 10 and Romans 8, two very clear passages, we can determine that Hebrews 6 is not indicating that a person who was once enlightened, tasted, and were partakers, were saved and then lost their salvation. That means its time to dig a little deeper.
Rule 1: Hebrews 6:7,8 are verses following that help also to shed light that these individuals were not saved.
Gotta run. I'm meeting with my friend to go over lesson four!
2 Thes 2:6
What does this passage mean to you?
What is the restraining force?
In greek it's "the(thing)" holding down you have known. Then it says "the(one) holding down.
(I have to get a better translation bible-A big one I can see better- I'm getting more out of reading the origional text than my regular bible)
I'm still trying to understand the omitting of "Catching up" view Kathy- have not as of yet. Whether I agree or not I really want to understand your viewpoint.
I compared Matt 24:10-11 to 2 Thes:2 in the Greek translation. The same greek word apostacia "to depart" is not used in Matt 24. I understand they both have mention of the Anti-Christ.
The diciples were specifically asking Jesus in Matt 24 about "Israel's promised kingdom."
Which we all know will be established at the end of the Trib.
So why would Jesus mention any promise to the "Church age" here?
He doesn't. He specifically is only speaking about God's covenant with the Jews. But this would include people who turn to Christ in this time period as well.
There is no reference of the greek word apostacia or "to depart"(from faith or from the earth-it's open for discussion-could be both) of believers here nor "restraining force" being taken away to begin the "Day of our Lord". That is only mentioned in 2 Thes.
It uses other greek words for descriptive purposes. "will be stumbled" "They will give over" "will mislead" "will cool off". But apostacia is not used.
in Matt 24.
If it was I could possibly see some connection.
And regarding your 1) and 2) points. (I really do that as well so we both believe we are using the same methods yet come up with a different view)
So if you can explain what the restraining force is or could be in your view-I think I'll be able to understand it better.
Lisa
Hi, Kathy and Jim,
I would add one more thing to what you said above (which I completely agree with). There are two perspectives when it comes to salvation. God's and man's. Scripture gives us both. From God's, we're told that before the foundations of the earth He chose us (Ephesians 1:3-5) and that our salvation is secure in His hands (John 10:27-30). From man's, we're told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12,13) and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So there has to be a balance. God is in control, but we are never to be lax about it. Works is the evidence of saving faith.
Sometimes when we say "once saved, always saved" that gives the impression that a walk down the aisle at church as a six year old means I have fire insurance, no matter how I live. God's word says, however, by their fruit you will know them. God knows who His children are - He calls them, according to John 6:44 He actually drags us (same word as draw), but for us to have confidence in our relationship with Him, we have to examine our fruit. John MacArthur wrote a great book on this in the eighties called the Gospel According to Jesus, which stirred the pot, so to say. It's all about Lordship - you can recognize Jesus is God but without making Him Lord of your life, there is no assurance of eternity with Him. That's the falling away issue, too - some hang around church, participate in the grace that is afforded there, but never make Him Lord and eventually fall away - or walk away. I don't believe they have lost that God-given salvation at that time - God doesn't pull out a big eraser and blot their name from the book of Life. They never were true, Lordship believers.
I hope this explanation helps you understand where we're coming from, Jim. We are probably on the same page, just describing it differently.
My question would be, if God choses and saves, how can we walk away from that work?
Have a great afternoon!
Kristen
Kristen,
Thank you for adding that perspective. (I own a copy and have read John’s book.)
Lisa,
I’m so glad you are back! It’s wonderful being a student of the Word, isn’t it? I enjoy logical, biblical discussion. That is the true spirit where truth can be found. So thanks for coming back.
I don’t look for what a passage means to me. I look for the Author/author’s intended meaning. (When I say Author/author, I’m recognizing that Scripture has a divine author, God, who worked through human authors.)
I understand the restrainer to be Michael, the archangel, based on Daniel 12:1.
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise.” Will arise means to stand still and do nothing. “And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.”
I include the church during that time as well as Israel because of Paul’s teaching in 2 Th. 2.
What was Paul teaching in 2 Th. 2? He was teaching the Thessalonians what would happen before the day of the Lord occurs. From verse two we see that they had thought the day of the Lord had already come. He also indicates that at the day of the Lord, Jesus comes and we are gathered together to Him. Verses one and two are where we see Paul tie the Lord’s coming and our gathering together with the day of the Lord. (Comparing Scripture with Scripture, Paul makes a reference about the day of the Lord to the Philippians. He tells them in 1:6 that God who began a good work in them would perfect it until the day of Christ - when He returns and gathers the church!)
Paul tells the Thessalonians that the day of the Lord, when Jesus comes and we are gathered, will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed. Does it make sense to say the day of the Lord, when Jesus comes and the church is gathered, will not come unless the church departs first and the man of lawlessness is revealed? It doesn’t to me. It makes much more sense to say the day of the Lord, when Jesus comes and we are gathered, will not come unless there is a departure from the faith first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed. What does the man of lawlessness do when he is revealed? He sets himself up as God in the temple and demands worship. Those who refuse will be killed. Who are those who refuse? True believers because they will only worship the one true God. Doesn’t it make sense that those playing church will then depart from the faith at this time, to save their skins? Their love for God will grow cold. Even though the same Greek word is not used in Mt. 24, the context warrants that both passages are referring to a departure from the faith.
Here is the question the disciples ask Jesus in Mt. 24:3: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?” The disciples wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed, what was the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. He definitely had the church in mind because at the very end of Mt. He tells the disciples He would be with them (the church included) to the end of the age. Why do we know the church is included? Because He’d just given the great commission to go and make disciples of all nations and teach them everything He commanded, and that would include His teaching in Mt. 24.
Back to 2 Th. 2 for one more thing you mentioned. You said the restraining force needed to be taken away to begin the day of the Lord. That is not quite what Paul said. He said the man of lawlessness would not be revealed until the restrainer was removed. The revealing of the man of lawlessness occurs prior to the day of the Lord. When the man of lawlessness is revealed the great tribulation begins. Then, at some unknown day and hour the Lord will come with His angels, at the day of the Lord, and remove the object of the man of lawlessness’s persecution, the elect, the true church.
Verses 6-8: “And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed…whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end (means rendered useless) by the appearance of His coming.”
The man of lawlessness will still have authority until he is finally done away with at Armageddon, but with the elect removed at Christ’s coming, the object of his persecution, he will be rendered useless.
You seem to enjoy word studies. I would encourage you to look at all the references that use the word coming, or parousia.
I’ve given you a lot to digest Lisa.
Let me know if I missed anything that you were wondering about. And thanks again for the visit.
Kathy
Lisa,
Some thoughts about the end of the age and the day of the Lord.
Jesus said at the end of Matthew He would be with us (His church) till the end of the age. (28:20)
In Mt. 24 He returns at the end of the age with His angels. Those who endure to the end are saved/delivered - the elect are gathered. (vv. 3, 13, 29-31)
In Mt. 13 the wheat (true believers) are gathered by the angels into the barn at the end of the age. (v. 30, 39)
Paul tells the Philippians (1:6) that the good work God begins in them (which is applicable to us), He will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus (when He returns to gather the church).
In 2 Th. 2 Paul ties the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to the day of the Lord.
In 1 Th. 5:4 Paul tells the Thessalonians they are not in darkness that the day of the Lord will overtake them like a thief. Just before that he tells them in chapter four that at the coming of the Lord the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds (the gathering together) to meet the Lord in the air – at the day of the Lord!
Are you seeing the pattern? Jesus refers to His coming and gathering as occurring at the end of the age. Paul refers to the Lord’s coming and our gathering as occurring at the day of the Lord.
The day of the Lord occurs at the end of the age! They are synonymous.
A careful reading of Mt. 24 shows that the end of the age occurs immediately after the tribulation which Jesus says is cut short for the sake of the elect.
Can you understand now why I don't see Scripture teaching a pretribulational rapture?
Hi, Kathy -
I am having problems with my email and I wanted to send this to you before you went away for the weekend - this is in regards to your latest photo album...
Wow!
That was incredible!
When I was in seventh grade, my parents took me on a tour to Israel. I can remember looking out the window on one of the drives from one touring site to the next and thinking of the verses that say if my people don't praise me, the very rocks will cry out in worship (Luke 19:40). There were so many rocks in Israel. To clear a field, people would gather them and make fences with piled rocks. Rocks on the side of the road. Rocky deserts and mountainous backdrops - rocks, rocks, rocks! As I looked at the landscape, I understood why Jesus used rocks (stones) as his illustration - because there were so many around Him. If He had been in my town, He might have said "sand"!
But there's more to it - I have learned over the past couple of years to raise my hands in worship. This has been horribly hard for me, since I grew up believing that if you raise your hands, you'll be speaking in tongues in no time! But it's not like that. Now I see in all over scripture - the call to raise our hands in worship (Psalm 63:4, Psalm 28:2, Psalm 134:2 and Psalm 131:2, to name a few). So, in obedience, I am lightening up and learning to raise my hands to the Lord. And I love it!
So, what does this have to do with the rocks? Well, creation cries out in worship every day. Even the rocks - the mountains, waterfalls, my gravel in my garden - it is all wonderfully made by the Creator and brings glory to Him. Your pictures were a real-life example of God's creation raising its hands to the Lord in worship. Picture after picture of trees with their limbs up-stretched to the Lord, flowers turning their faces to their Maker, water reflecting His beauty - it was truly a worship service you photographed.
Even the flowers which turned their faces toward the ground brought my mind to Nehemiah 8:6, when the people raised their hands and bowed their faces to the ground - leaves up, blossoms down!
Thank you so much for sharing this with me - another reminder of when man refuses to worship, creation still obeys - and longs to be redeemed! There's a whole other sermon in that one, isn't there?
Have a wonderful time at the lake...I am looking forward to seeing it through your eyes...
Thanks for your friendship,
Kristen
Great photos, Kathy! Thanks.
Thanks you two. Glad you enjoyed the album! Mac, I just posted the album of the lake pics at Shutterblog. Just click on my name and then Shutterblog.
I've just taken a look. Wow, God made it all and you did a good job of capturing it. The lake scenes are my favorites but they're all good!
Kathy,
How do you line up Luke 21:36
36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” [NKJV - emphasis added]
with the pre-wrath Rapture viewpoint, since according to this viewpoint this event would occur at the end of the Tribulation period, if you believe in Christians having to go through the Tribulation.
It seems to be saying that we can be "counted worthy to escape" the Tribulation period.
It is clear from the account in Luke 21 that Jesus distinguishes between the destruction of Jerusalem (which we know happened on AD70, by the Romans), and the start of the "time of the Gentiles" (which we are still in), as described in Luke 21:20-24, and the period leading up to the Tribulation period (v25-27).
This passage implies that there are specific requirements that make us to be "counted worthy" so that we may stand before the Son of Man.
So, it would seem that we have a choice as to whether we escape the Tribulation or not...
Since without faith it is impossible to please God, and also that anything that is not of faith is sin, it would appear that we need to have faith (i.e. believe the Word) that we can be counted worthy to escape the Tribulation period - which would seem to imply that there is a means of escape to be provided by God to those who believe, have faith - i.e. the Rapture before the Tribulation period.
I think this is a clear instruction from Jesus Himself to study the
Word to determine just what those requirements are for us to be "counted worthy".
John
Hi John,
Back in verse 34 of Luke 21 we are told to be on guard, that our hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap. Verse 35 - for it, or that day, will come upon all those who dwell on the face of the earth.
Looking at the verses surrounding verse 36, it gives us the context of what we are to escape. It is the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is going to come upon those who dwell on the face of the earth suddenly like a trap. As you probably know prewrath differentiates the great tribulation from the day of the Lord. Prewrath understands scripture to teach that the church will not be spared Satan’s wrath (Antichrist’s persecution) during the great tribulation (Rev. 12:12) but will be spared the day of the Lord’s wrath. (1 Th. 5:9). Prewrath views Luke 21:25-27 as the close of the great tribulation, the end of the age, and just before the day of the Lord’s wrath gets underway. (Joel 2:31 records the cosmic sign and says it will occur before the day of the Lord.)
Comparing scripture with scripture, if we go to 1 Th. 5:1-9, Paul also discusses the day of the Lord. Just prior to that he spoke of the rapture. (1 Th. 4:13-18). 1 Th. 5 is an extension of his teaching on the rapture. He says the day of the Lord will come suddenly and overtake those who are in darkness. They will not escape. (1 Th. 5:3) He instructs believers to be alert and sober. (1 Th. 5:6) Believers are sons of light and sons of day. Not of night or of darkness. (1 Th. 5:5) Believers are the watchful and sober, the alert and the ones praying and will be counted worthy to escape the day of the Lord. They will be caught up (1 Th. 4:17) before God’s sudden destruction falls on those who dwell on the earth, those weighted down with frivolity and drunkenness. Believers are to look up (Luke 21:28) when they see the sign in the sun, moon, and stars and dismay among the nations, for at that point, their redemption draws near. The men fainting from fear in Luke 21:26 are the earth dwellers in verse 35 and the day of the Lord will come upon them suddenly like a trap.
Thanks for the visit,
Kathy
Hi John,
I asked my prewrath friend Kristen about your question regarding Luke 21:36. This is what she wrote back. "Your answer about Luke 21:36 is good – there are only two things I would add, – first, Luke 21 is a bit fuzzy because of the near/far prophesies. Jesus does refer to an immediate event and correlates it with a future event. We know this by comparing this passage with Matthew 24 and then observing history. So, sometimes things are thrown at us from Luke 21 that we have to be careful with. There is a good explanation for that passage, but it is a bit harder to work through. Secondly, in addition to escaping the wrath of God, we can also be found worthy to escape some of the horror of the great tribulation – I point to the church of Philadelphia. How can we be “worthy” to escape the WORST tribulation which will ever come upon believers? By rightly dividing the Word of truth, looking for the signs and preparing for that terrible time. That’s why we're watching. That’s why Jesus says to watch. A true watchman is looking for signs so that they can respond. That’s why Jesus says to watch, so that you may be worthy to escape."
So John, I believe those who are true watchmen, when they begin to see the signs, starting with the seven year covenant and then the AofD, will respond by heeding Christ's warnings. They will go into hiding after making preparations and then will not come out when the false Christ's try to lure them out of hiding. These will be the ones who will be counted worthy to escape the horrors of the great tribulation. For their faithfulness they will be counted worthy and will be protected, like Noah who prepared and was protected during the flood.
And of course, when the great tribulation is amputated by Christ's coming and gathering of the elect - which I understand to be the resurrected and raptured church, they will escape the day of the Lord's wrath which then follows.
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